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	<title>Comments on: Women In Leadership part 2 &#8211; Contextual Issues</title>
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	<description>Keeping it simple... Keeping it real!</description>
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		<title>By: Christian St John</title>
		<link>http://hardcorefaith.com/archives/3733/comment-page-1#comment-2855</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian St John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree Ruth, this is a major issue.  It informs how we do ministry, outreach, and pretty much everything else.  And you&#039;re right, we (the church) need to pray that we can work this out with as few casualties as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Ruth, this is a major issue.  It informs how we do ministry, outreach, and pretty much everything else.  And you&#8217;re right, we (the church) need to pray that we can work this out with as few casualties as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth Rich</title>
		<link>http://hardcorefaith.com/archives/3733/comment-page-1#comment-2854</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I so appreciate you bringing this up, Chris.  It cheers my heart.  It also makes me a little worried.

I used to think that the topic of female leadership was a minor one and that I shouldn&#039;t get so worked up about it, but now I think it&#039;s major and that&#039;s what scares me.  So many evangelicals are taking up positions, some like the Southern Baptists, convinced that women are subordinate to men in the home and the church.  Others, like the group &quot;Christians for Biblical Equality&quot; armed with scholarship to support an egalitarian way of thinking. 

The battle lines are being drawn and it could get ugly. There could be a seismic shift in the church, like there was during the time of Luther breaking from the Catholics.  Not unlike the civil war when brother fought against brother over slavery.  I don&#039;t think I&#039;m overstating it.  This is a major issue.  

I truly believe things need to change drastically, but I&#039;m afraid of the war.  Maybe I need to start praying for unity as well as justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I so appreciate you bringing this up, Chris.  It cheers my heart.  It also makes me a little worried.</p>
<p>I used to think that the topic of female leadership was a minor one and that I shouldn&#8217;t get so worked up about it, but now I think it&#8217;s major and that&#8217;s what scares me.  So many evangelicals are taking up positions, some like the Southern Baptists, convinced that women are subordinate to men in the home and the church.  Others, like the group &#8220;Christians for Biblical Equality&#8221; armed with scholarship to support an egalitarian way of thinking. </p>
<p>The battle lines are being drawn and it could get ugly. There could be a seismic shift in the church, like there was during the time of Luther breaking from the Catholics.  Not unlike the civil war when brother fought against brother over slavery.  I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m overstating it.  This is a major issue.  </p>
<p>I truly believe things need to change drastically, but I&#8217;m afraid of the war.  Maybe I need to start praying for unity as well as justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian St John</title>
		<link>http://hardcorefaith.com/archives/3733/comment-page-1#comment-2853</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian St John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>People often refer to the Gen. 3:16 passage and link it to this.  Not saying you are, because I know you&#039;re probably not ;) but many people think that 1 Tim. 2:12 is a continuation of Gen. 3:16.  I don&#039;t think that Paul was telling Timothy to teach the men of his church that they are to &quot;rule&quot; over their wives and daughters.  Obviously there is the whole thing about the childbearing in both passages of Scripture, but listen to what Paul says 1 Tim. 2:15... &quot;Women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.&quot;  So not only is it important to have faith, women will be saved by having children... that&#039;s what the text says!  With this in mind then there must be more to this than meets the eye.

I always laugh at men who use the 1 Tim. 2:12 passage to &quot;excuse&quot; women from leadership roles in the church but skim over the whole, &quot;I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.&quot; (vs. 8).  If the men in the church can accomplish this then I might listen to their arguments.  Also I would love to see how many men can enforce the following text on their wives in our modern church :) &quot;I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.&quot; (vs. 9)

I would say that I believe this issue is a contextual one.  I have researched this issue on and off for about five years now and believe the underlying reason for Paul writing this to Timothy was to counteract a Gnostic teaching in his church in which the women were teaching a false version of creation and the fall into sin.  Hence Paul using the creation account to further back up his reasoning for prohibiting women from teaching at the time.  

I would also strongly urge anyone struggling with this issue to read Galatians 3: 26 in which Paul wrote, &quot;In Christ&#039;s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal.&quot; (The Message)  Either Paul was a schizophrenic writer, as this text does not marry up well with the whole &quot;ruling&quot; ideal, or indeed he had another reason for writing 1 Tim. 2:12.

Either way I would rather take the chance and be wrong and empower women into ministry... at the end of my days I&#039;m sure God will forgive me.  But what if Paul didn&#039;t in fact mean all women for all time and based on this text I went and stopped God ordained women from fulfilling their calling?  Which would be worse?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People often refer to the Gen. 3:16 passage and link it to this.  Not saying you are, because I know you&#8217;re probably not <img src='http://www.hardcorefaith.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  but many people think that 1 Tim. 2:12 is a continuation of Gen. 3:16.  I don&#8217;t think that Paul was telling Timothy to teach the men of his church that they are to &#8220;rule&#8221; over their wives and daughters.  Obviously there is the whole thing about the childbearing in both passages of Scripture, but listen to what Paul says 1 Tim. 2:15&#8230; &#8220;Women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.&#8221;  So not only is it important to have faith, women will be saved by having children&#8230; that&#8217;s what the text says!  With this in mind then there must be more to this than meets the eye.</p>
<p>I always laugh at men who use the 1 Tim. 2:12 passage to &#8220;excuse&#8221; women from leadership roles in the church but skim over the whole, &#8220;I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.&#8221; (vs. 8).  If the men in the church can accomplish this then I might listen to their arguments.  Also I would love to see how many men can enforce the following text on their wives in our modern church <img src='http://www.hardcorefaith.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  &#8220;I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.&#8221; (vs. 9)</p>
<p>I would say that I believe this issue is a contextual one.  I have researched this issue on and off for about five years now and believe the underlying reason for Paul writing this to Timothy was to counteract a Gnostic teaching in his church in which the women were teaching a false version of creation and the fall into sin.  Hence Paul using the creation account to further back up his reasoning for prohibiting women from teaching at the time.  </p>
<p>I would also strongly urge anyone struggling with this issue to read Galatians 3: 26 in which Paul wrote, &#8220;In Christ&#8217;s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal.&#8221; (The Message)  Either Paul was a schizophrenic writer, as this text does not marry up well with the whole &#8220;ruling&#8221; ideal, or indeed he had another reason for writing 1 Tim. 2:12.</p>
<p>Either way I would rather take the chance and be wrong and empower women into ministry&#8230; at the end of my days I&#8217;m sure God will forgive me.  But what if Paul didn&#8217;t in fact mean all women for all time and based on this text I went and stopped God ordained women from fulfilling their calling?  Which would be worse?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://hardcorefaith.com/archives/3733/comment-page-1#comment-2851</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Chris,
Very good article.  To answer the questions you have at the bottom, I was drawn to Genesis 3:16 &quot;To the woman he said, &quot;I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.&quot; &quot; (NIV)

From the fall of Adam (and Eve), a consequence of sin is the ruling of man over woman.  Unfortunately, this is the way it&#039;s always been and always will be until Christ&#039;s return.  We live in a fallen world, with the terrible consequence that women will always struggle for equality with men.  

It&#039;s really too bad though as women leaders in my experience are some of the best!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,<br />
Very good article.  To answer the questions you have at the bottom, I was drawn to Genesis 3:16 &#8220;To the woman he said, &#8220;I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.&#8221; &#8221; (NIV)</p>
<p>From the fall of Adam (and Eve), a consequence of sin is the ruling of man over woman.  Unfortunately, this is the way it&#8217;s always been and always will be until Christ&#8217;s return.  We live in a fallen world, with the terrible consequence that women will always struggle for equality with men.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s really too bad though as women leaders in my experience are some of the best!</p>
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